Religious Persecution

» redback - Should religious leaders be given more protection?

In response to Should religious leaders be given more protection? posted by benhughes:

"Maybe it's partly the sort of area I work in but there is a general dislike and distrust of anything and everything religious and this permeates people's lives."

Is this contageous? What specific area are you working in...and have you heard of 'burnout'? Are you talking about religionism?

"If we don't expect certain behaviour, can we really complain if we haven't set the barriers for people to reach?"

I'm trying to translate this. I reckon there are efforts to set standards of behaviour. That all those who complain aren't necessarily hypocritical. If we set unrealistic goals, they'll only be known by their breaches. BUT who sets the standards that some will enjoy and others must comply with? And what good are 'standards' if only 51% properly understand or halfheartedly agree to?

I worked for an agency that copped abuse and staff were required to file harassment reports. These reflected problems with mutual rights and responsibilities. Strategies were developed and trends monitored. But it does require commitment.

-- posted by redback

» redback - Should religious leaders be given more protection?

In response to Should religious leaders be given more protection? posted by redback:

Almost absolutely nothing to do with your topic BUT I read today there are 5,500 glass and bottle attacks in the UK pa. To counteract this, there is a move to replace (beer) glass eswith polycarbonate or pubs can lose their licence. Here, "...three in as many weeks..." is enough to call for the same approach.

Not enough police, binge drinking, trading hours? Best solution?

-- posted by redback

» Ben Hughes - Should religious leaders be given more protection?

In response to Should religious leaders be given more protection? posted by redback:

"Maybe it's partly the sort of area I work in but there is a general dislike and distrust of anything and everything religious and this permeates people's lives."

Is this contageous? What specific area are you working in...and have you heard of 'burnout'? Are you talking about religionism?

I work as a teacher in what is (generally) proud to be a very working-class and traditional town in north-west England. The view of many people are closed and secular and it's not unusal for people to have lived their whole lives in the town and never ventured far from it, either to work, live or for holidays. It's a poor area of the country and a large proportion of the people are very indifferent to any sort of change either in terms of development of the town or a change of routine (like in school timetables etc.). It's a very challenging place to work and it's not to do with 'burnout' - it's more to do with people's attitudes.

In terms of religion, most of them hate it even though they don't know anything about it. But the thing is, they don't want to know and they close themselves to anything they don't want to hear.

Being at school, we have to set some sort of standard and expect pupils to behave accordingly. They need to know they can't talk to teachers and other members of staff the way most of them talk to each other and their parents. I take you point that we shouldn't set unrealistic goals, but it does need commitment and I think it needs some minimum standards for everyone to aspire to to avoid a state of anarchy. Working in a school where there have been riots and fights and violent incidents towards teachers from pupils, I have seen first hand the affect of a lack of standards and expectations.

» Ben Hughes - Should religious leaders be given more protection?

In response to Should religious leaders be given more protection? posted by redback:

There's a current push to tackle to the problems created by binge drinking in the UK - anti-social behaviour, health problems etc. One thing was extending licencing hours to 24 hours rather than closing pubs at 11pm. This was to try to avoid people drinking as much as they could bfore closing time and then all ending up on the street when pubs closed at the same time. There's also an education programme to warn about the health risks of binge drinking.

I'm not sure if more police is the necessarily the answer or whether a responsible attitude to drinking should be promoted alongside responsible selling of alcohol.

There's also an idea in at least some parts of this country that young people drink so much because there's nothing for them to do and if more was provided in terms of leisure activities then it would help move them away from drink and anti-social behaviour.

What's the approach where you are? Not wanting to sound pessimistic, is there a best solution?

» redback - blackboard jungle?

There's a friction between the 'process and the program' in what you say. When you say: "...It's a very challenging place to work..." it reminds me we were told not to think of 'problems' but 'challenges' instead. Are the school's goals truly reflective of the aspirational goals and capacities of its citizens and students? Are you trying to shift the brick wall with your head?

I don't know where 'religious education' fits in and your conclusion: "In terms of religion, most of them hate it even though they don't know anything about it." is hard to take at face value as it begs far more questions. What people are not motivated to do is simply half a statement as it may obscur what they ARE motivated to do. So, the "challenge" is to work on the important or most relevant half of their statement?

I'm no educator but it seems to me good manners and religion don't come before civil obedience. And depending on actual academic achievements of the school, maybe it should re-jig its charter.

There was once a Polish lady, 'Rainbow' who posted to suite101 who was studying for her PhD while working as a teacher in Poland where there was apparently systemic corruption and NO aspirational desires from any student she taught. I really don't know how you guys do it...I take my hat off to you.

-- posted by redback

» redback - I drink, I fall down

In response to Should religious leaders be given more protection? posted by benhughes:

I actually don't see any universal nor consistently applied approach here for binge drinking. What is cause and consequence? Can we all agree AND commit? One part of my mentioning related assaults here was context: to ponder exactly where should society place vicars in its priority list...to knee jerk react to. You don't expect society to do more, do you?

When people can't or won't accept responsibility for their own actions, then the compromise is to cop the consequences. some examples here:
Random breath tests; altering the law so that a drunken girl CAN'T give consent so it's rape; harsh TV ads showing rape, death of your mates etc etc is an outcome from uncontrolled drinking; not allowing drinks to be brought into sporting venues.

There is no one problem that enables the one fix. It's like maple syrup on a stack of pancakes. BUT the next thing to do is plan ahead BEFORE beer etc is invented and before Adam and Eve do anything wrong. OK...a tad late!

There was a part of an inner city town...Refern's infamous The Block, that was simply demolished. A Housing Commission town that was renamed and no housing commission towns developed elsewhere. In my area (the largest poor to working class local government area in the state of NSW) there is a very active program to close laneways or footpaths between houses that foster antisocial behaviours. Neighbourhood Watch has fizzled out now but this was a scheme to incite neighbours to care for each other.

What sorts of ideas would come out of your schoolkids in a brainstorming exercise?

-- posted by redback

» Ben Hughes - blackboard jungle?

In response to blackboard jungle? posted by redback:

Thanks for your comments.

Challenging - a politically correct term for badly behaved and unmotivated people and don't work, don't want to work and literally have no aspirations apart from getting out of school as quickly as possible. If that means never turning up (with or without their parents' consent), being kicked out (not literally) for their bad or threatening behaviour or refusing to turn up to exams, so be it. I've actually had pupils tell me they'd rather have one qualification less than have the stigma of getting one in Religious Education - and the sad thing is they meant it.

There is an educational shift to move to more vocational courses and work-related things rather than academic study which would benefit so many more, but I think that the curriculum over here is too restrictive anyway. Take my subject (Religious Education) - the government made it compulsory which means we have to get everyone in the school year through an exam which we as teachers are judged on and the majority of the pupils hate which in turn puts them off the subject. If things were more flexible and the pupils could choose whether to study it or not, we'd actually get the ones who want to do it and get the most out of it rather than the ones who want to cause problems. Just a thought!

Instead, we are forced to try to make them enjoy learning about God and religion which puts them off the subject even more, however well it's wrapped up. I know just where 'Rainbow' was coming from.

» Ben Hughes - I drink, I fall down

In response to I drink, I fall down posted by redback:

At the moment, the UK has one of the highest rates (if not the highest) of binge drinking in Europe which is having a knock-on effect on health, fertility, employment and productivity (for example).

I don't expect a knee-jerk reaction to anything, but when it comes to crimes against religion, it seems that the media push them well down the priority list and so most of the public don't know about them, let alone have the chance to voice their opinions. Where it should actually come on a priority list is even more difficult to say and isn't something I think I'd like to risk having a go at because we would then list every form of crime and anti-social behaviour and try to fit them in accordingly.

What I am saying is that crimes against religion should have a greater attention than it currently has. The most recent focus in the UK is gun and knife crime so maybe when that's lost its appeal or the crime rate has gone down, those against religions will have more of a chance of attention.

You don't expect society to do more, do you?
No, I don't necessarily feel it's society's responsibility to do anything except have expectations in terms of behaviour of people.
As for the teenagers I teach, so many of them are into drink, drugs and tobacco that they thing all drugs should be legalised and as for their attitudes towards religion, I know first-hand that people I've come across in the last 6 years or so would actively commit arson against religious buildings if they could and would love to see religious leaders get beaten up.
Where that leaves my idea of society setting high standards I don't know!

» redback - blackboard jungle?

In response to blackboard jungle? posted by benhughes:

My 2-bobs worth. Without reviewing your syllabus, the simple fact the UK government has made 'Religious Education' compulsory anywhere is counter-productive to even Blind Freddy. Counter-productive to the educational needs of a community and to the development of a healthy respect for religion. To me, 'religion' is a subset within 'Morality and Ethics' for want of a better title...and not the reverse...if the purpose below IS truly targetted.

"However, the aim of most RE is not to indoctrinate students but to enable them to understand the diversity of religious and moral beliefs. The ostensible purpose of the program is to enable them to fully develop socially, morally, spiritually and culturally."

The above from wikipedia but the devil is in the detail of your syllabus. I see wiggle room for concern.

The font's too small at this link for me but your eyesight may possibly be better:
http://books.google.com/books?id=xmy5Usm...

The UK and USA are poles apart on RE. We're somewhere in the middle but the fact is religious private schools here have more public endorsement to teach it. (What we call a private school is different to what the UK calls it)

If the UK has such an acknowledged 'extremist' position on this per above website, is it really likely it's teachings are perceived to be less than benign?

Doesn't it require a 'courageous' decision by Sir Humphrey to fix it sooner rather than later? Re-stating: "Children are like politicians; you can't just give them what they want - it only encourages them."

-- posted by redback

» redback - I drink, I fall down

In response to I drink, I fall down posted by benhughes:

I coined a summary phrase - "compare, contrast, context - 3C" or at least I think I coined it. I'm trying to apply that to your issues but tis hard. 'crime against religion' is such an umbrella term for me, there's no easy entry point.

I don't know if my comments confused. There is a complex matrix of issues. When you refer to 'vicar' I could guess predominantly Christians are attempting to teach RE where no religion should be favoured? When you refer to crime against religion, I could guess Islam is being targeted more than Christianity? And IF I guessed...I could be totally wrong.

"...binge drinking in Europe which is having a knock-on effect on health, fertility, employment and productivity (for example)..."

Binge drinking, crime and mental health problems are within this same cycle that starts with exactly what?

"I don't expect a knee-jerk reaction to anything"
I actually expect 'knee jerk' reactions and band-aid solutions to these things because the underlying problems are all "too hard" for society to deal with other than by flawed compromises that don't suit all.

For example, one such 'compromise' is a perceived total lack of interest in what happens to vicars and religion's place in society. And if this lack of interest is what you're thinking and what your students are thinking...methinks there is a self-fulfilling prophecy in that too.

"The most recent focus in the UK is gun and knife crime..."

What the media think is important, topical or populist views on who we should vote for etc etc can cloud the facts. Even if such a superficial media get around to talking about your concerns, tis a quantum leap to assume it will make a difference. And this elusive, slippery concept called 'society' won't help before your local community shows enough will to want to change.

-- posted by redback